CounterMeasure – The Profitable Estimator Podcast

the tough part and being an immigrant myself

I can completely understand

obviously new Australians come into the country um

and they a trained or given opportunities to upskill

paintings one of them

cause it's a relatively easy process to learn

but it's something you need a long time in

to actually get a good skill set in

but they're not delivered the training correctly

and then they're sort of thrown out into the workforce

and trying to make it as a painter

but they don't really have the skill sets

to do it correctly and that's not their fault

that starts at a I would imagine

I don't know if I can say a government level

I suppose

but there's a way they need to be trained better

that's what we're passionate about

about training apprentices directly

in a four year apprenticeship

across the broad spectrum of paint

application processes so that

if they choose to stay on with us

and continue their career

that's amazing but at the same time

if they want to go out and do their own thing

then we've delivered someone to the public

or to the trade sector

that can apply those finishes correctly

um and also

without ripping someone off

or causing product failure or any of those things

that is just what we see here and read about

way too much at the moment

um that would be the biggest thing I think

and there's not there's not a lot

of businesses that train properly

there's a few but not many and without that

the next generation of painters is really gonna die

hard

good day legends

this is the Profitable Estimator podcast

I'm Joey Hidalgo Today I'm chatting with Corey Pon

managing director of Top Coat Painting Melbourne

hey there

thank you thank you for coming uh

great to have you so why listen up

17+ years on the brush experience

25 25 25 fully qualified

five star reputation in high pages

and runs a point cook crew

um known for punctual

no mess finishes and gives a back as a um

a committee member or actually a

I believe a leader as well in Windham business

was in the local SMEs mm hmm yes

so yeah I'm on the committee for Windham Business

one of the local uh

networking groups we have here in Windham Vale

wonderful okay

together we'll unpack the first job

profit leaks in painting

and real solutions for the trade skills gap

now let's dive in sure

Corey

what pulled a Kiwi train painter across to Australia

and into running one of the Wyndham's busiest crews

it's a long story really but um

as most young blokes do we chase young ladies over here

I suppose um

I came over back in um

2,005 with about 18 bucks cash in me pocket

in my entire life on my back and a backpack

so um and just work my way up from there

it was pretty easy to find work

as you know yourself from Melbourne

there's just work everywhere

if you're good at what you do

know how to apply yourself

you can get a job anywhere

so that was a big eye opener for me

cause I was fresh out of my time as well

so probably about 6 months to a year

outside of being qualified

and yeah

just work my way through working for some of the large

uh Greek and Italian crews through Turra

South Yarra all the really high end suburbs

working on sort of five to 10 million dollar homes

things I'd never seen before

and I really elevated my skill set really quickly

working in and around those environments

and then 2,010

my wife and I moved back to New Zealand for her career

and gain just work as a subcontractor over there

because it was easy to pick up work

and learn a few more things around subcontracting

um sort of what you can and can't do

learn a bit more business operation

I wouldn't say much but learn a bit more

how to apply myself in a situation to make more money

rather than just working for your 40 hours a week

and then 2015 it was time to come back to to

to raise our family so um

when we came back here again

I started working for a mate of mine and um

he said to me mate you're too good

you should not be doing this for an hourly rate for me

get out there and you know

get your own work and as it happened

I picked up a couple of jobs here and there and um

yeah we just found a couple of lead generating

websites that were just starting up

and approached us and said

would you be interested at reduced rates

and all that sort of thing

and kind of just kicked off from there

and would sort of realise

particularly out in the west where as you know

Windem Vale is the fastest growing suburb in at least

Victoria potentially Australia

I think um

and we realized that um

whilst there's

I think it's like 28,000 businesses and like at least

I can't remember the exact numbers

but at least 20,000 of those are painters

there was no high end quality experience

being employed in the painting industry

let alone any training at this side

except for those involved with the Dulux

accredited program

which we made a goal of ours to become a part of

as well

started that off in 2016 rest is history awesome

awesome take us back to the very first project you won

like you just said right

you won yup

um under the top coat banner

and what lesson from that job um

still guides you

your quoting today from a quoting perspective

I actually remember that job

it was through um

one of Carly my wife's workmates and I priced it all

I didn't have any materials or like

tools to do the job so to speak

so I had to purchase all of those as well

and

it was the first and only time I made the mistake of

in the quote when I submitted the quote

and I had the labour content

I submitted the materials separated cost with that too

which is you just don't do that

so I didn't know what I was doing

I think

I under quoted it from a labour perspective as well

and I found myself working until

you know 6

8 o'clock at night just to try and get stuff done

within the time to get it done

but that was a big eye opener at that stage

probably the next one was starting to knuckle down

things like our terms and conditions

cause we'd submit quotes

without any need of the client to sign them

to lock them in to those terms

they could change stuff anytime

uh we didn't have any terms and conditions

the scope was pretty generic

so those are probably the first mistakes

yeah it was the first mistakes that I sort of made

because you have no leg to stand on when they go

oh you're supposed to include this in the quote like

well no

as you can see here in the quote that you've signed

that's not what I'm meant to do

so um

that was probably the first things I Learned from

from the perspective

okay wonderful

now fast forward to 2025

what's the main focus for Top Coat right now

like niche finishes scaling up or community impact

probably all of the above to be honest

we do wanna grow a bit more not not massively

I don't wanna be one of those 20 guys firms that's

that's the a management nightmare

and I think sometimes less is more to have a good

smaller crew of highly experienced

really good team members

just delivers the same project

we also do a lot of commercial stuff as well

so um we love working in the commercial space

whether it is the defense sector and the government

which we've just completed um

a whole lot of uh

acoustic upgrades for our Prime Minister's office

and in a few other places at Parliament House um

we do a a lot of like a medical marijuana facilities um

when they become refitted and rebuilt

all those sorts of things

that's that's where we wanna head

I'd like to keep the residential stuff

that's that's we train our apprentices um

and they get that experience of working in around

we call our mums and dads in their homes and

and simple things like cutting and rolling walls

prepping weatherboards things like that um

but yeah

that's that's sort of where we're heading towards

I think it couple more people on the team

bit more of a good commercial pipeline um

and a little bit yeah you guys are getting busy yeah

I see we noticed that

just to jump back to actually what I think of it

so you have the special finishes

we're actually working into that um

things like the Portas fresco

the stone paint finishes

all of those sort of really nice stuff

wallpaper as well I hang wallpaper too

so all of those things are starting to come back um

and there's not too many guys that know how to do it

well um

and we're able to supply those

particularly to our commercial clients that have

like a retail space where they really wanna go bang

this is you walk in that's what it looks like

so that's why we wanna get more into that

too'cause they're fun to apply yeah yeah

I can imagine oh my God

thank you for sharing that

so everyone talks about the trade shortage

yet nothing seems to shift from your business seat

what practical fix are we still missing

by the trade shortage do you mean the work shortage

or the skilled personnel shortage

all the skills right

mm hmm okay

so yeah there is

I think um

the tough part and being an immigrant myself

I can completely understand

obviously new Australians come into the country um

and they

a trained or given opportunities to upskill paintings

one of them

cause it's a relatively easy process to learn

but it's something you need a long time in

to actually get a good skill set in

but they're not delivered the training correctly

and then they're sort of thrown out into the workforce

and trying to make it as a painter

but they don't really have the skill

sets to do it correctly and that's not their fault

that starts at a I would imagine

I don't know if I can say government level

I suppose

but there's a way they need to be trained better

that's what we're passionate about

about training apprentices correctly

in a four year apprenticeship

across the broad spectrum of paint

application processes

so that if they choose to stay on with us

and continue their career

that's amazing but at the same time

if they want to go out and do their own thing

then we've delivered someone to the public

or to the trade sector that can

apply those finishes correctly

um and also

without ripping someone off

or causing product failure or any of those things that

you know is just

what we see here and read about

way too much at the moment

um that would be the biggest thing

I think it

and there's not a lot of businesses that train properly

there's a few but not many

and without that

the next generation of painters is really

gonna die hard wow okay

well at least top coat painting is doing that portion

their share right

so so trying to

haha

so painters often bleed margin on prep and variations

where do you see the biggest

profit leaks and how do you plug them

the biggest profit leaks generally

uh

when a job is if you underestimate a time on a job um

and sometimes that happens

sometimes you'll look at something and you got

it should only take this long for a couple of guys

and let's let's for argument sake

it's a week painting for two guys

and a week has been five working days

um and you know

let's say seven to eight working days

they're still there finishing it up

so you've only allowed five days of labour right

plus materials everything else

and you're starting to bleed in to your profit margin

if you've even set one

if you're still pretty junior at pricing

you probably haven't set your markup or anything else

on top of that to allow for that

which I have measuring company to thank for

to open my eyes to that sort of thing

appreciate that it's

that's the biggest thing

and it's how it's allowing enough time

being smart enough to go OK

that job's gonna take five days for two guys

but I'm gonna add two more days for slippage

and then being comfortable submitting that price

cause you look at it and go

oh Gee that's quite expensive but at the same time

if you don't allow for that and it goes sideways

then you're doing the job for free

and you might as well not turned up to work anyway

because you're you're for free

you're better off sitting at home going broke

as they say correct

so um

well at least um thank you so much for that now um

you're renowned for 5 star functionality

what systems keep your crew turning up on time

and leaving sites spotless

just training and expectation um

starting from obviously my level um

I moved down to my team leaders and and sort of say

especially with our apprentices

this is the expectation it look

it doesn't always go to plan obviously um traffic

people being sick um

all kinds of stuff can cause those delays

the biggest thing if you're not gonna be somewhere

when you say you're gonna be there

is to communicate that

and that's probably the biggest thing I know of

with all of our builders

commercial or residential that um

upsets them the most

is that when a trade lets them down

because they don't turn up

when they say they're going to

and most of the time we do

but we're only human and we don't

but when we're not gonna be there

it's a phone call or text message hey mate

terribly sorry

stuck in traffic this has happened staff members sick

I'm gonna be an hour late or unfortunately

we're not gonna make it there today

but this is what I've got for you you know

to make up for it and that phone call

that's as good as being on time

because we are all human these things happen

agree agree

uh thought I'd remember uh

one of the visits that that I did with you

on one of those projects that you're doing out there

I think uh

one of the projects for Brooke

if I remember I saw your crew at you all early on that

and I was obviously

trying to help you out as well on that

other project you're working on so um yeah

um it's really evident

shall we say now rapid fire future questions

hahaha let me um

probably question is biggest growth sector uh

by 2030 that you see

I think in the construction industry the

the growth sectors I think it's still new homes

um because of an avail

there's so many people moving out this way right

um there's definitely

been an uplift in the commercial sector as well

but yeah I know

I think from a residential perspective

we do OK work wise

but I think the volume build industry is still

kind of kicking off a bit more yeah

I don't know that's a hard one

that's okay all good okay

thank you for that now

most overhyped tech you hear out there

we use a lot of tech we use good tech too um

but they this right now

there's an

more like a robotics that would paint the whole house

oh OK

yeah no

absolutely not like

I mean sure there's

I've seen machines on you know

Instagram or Facebook lay tiles and things like that

I've seen machines spray walls

but that's on a program that it's programmed to do

so you don't have um

it doesn't have the ability to make a decision

like a human does or move like a human does

I think you'll never take away

the paint application that a human can do

unless you can come up with some kind of painting

robot that can move like we can

who knows

maybe 100 years time that might be a thing but um

a robot doesn't have the passion that a person does

to take pride in their work

and what they do great

and well technically the uh

cutting out just the corners or the uh

cornice and also the uh the door jam right um

how do you cut that uh

on on painting with a uh well yeah

great question I mean

I'm not a robot and it took me quite a while

and a lot of practice to get that right um

some people pick it up quicker than others

but yeah I don't know

I maybe they can with some programming

who knows but I just don't think you're gonna get

you're not gonna get the

the fair and personality that's put into a project from

from versus a human who has love for what they do

couldn't agree more

most underrated profit lever for painting firms

what do you mean by profit lever

um let's just say that can actually

create more profitability for you out there um

to be honest

the special finishes are actually pretty good

from that perspective

because it takes a lot of training

to be able to put them on correctly um

and to do that

obviously comes with A&A price tag to do it as well

whereas at the end of the day

it's just labour and materials

but not everyone can apply it yeah OK

that was the hard one to try and be generic

cause obviously

you start talking about what makes you the most money

and everyone's gonna jump on it too nah

all good we want to make sure it's also

there's a level of IP that we have to protect

I understand so OK uh

well probably one last thing that I wanna ask is um

you mentor other Winham uh businesses through Biznet

yeah um

what the one piece of advice uh

you would actually give to new trady owners

new trady owners um be prepared to work your ass off

and not make any money for a while

my first 5 years in business was 7 days a week 13

14 hours a day making enough to cover expenses

put food on the table and cover living costs

but the hardest part is

getting your reputation and your name out there

cause if you can paint you can paint

that's that's enough or whatever your trade is

but people need to trust that and they need to

be able to call you knowing

let's use this guy cause he's got a good reputation

that just takes time grinding and hard work

and the statistic I think

is 99% of businesses or people fail

that in the first year just don't give up

I don't have any quit there's no quit in me

I'd I'd like to lose period

so if it gets harder I just knuckle down and go no

I ain't gonna lose this one

so you just gotta stick at it or not

if you don't want to that's fine

but if it's something you really wanna do

don't give it up keep grinding

get the name out there produce good work

be reliable that's all I can say

well

thank you so much for that that very inspiring legends

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who still says near enough is good enough again

Corey thank you so much for this

really appreciate this opportunity to um

interview you and um I hope to uh uh

share the world this

the story that you have here and uh

more success ah awesome

thanks Joey

it was it's a pleasure it's fun

it's good thank you so much OK